Below the Radar Transcript
Episode 18: Telling difficult stories with compassion â with Baljit Sangra
Speakers: Melissa Roach, Maria Cecilia Saba, Jamie-Leigh Gonzales, Am Johal, Baljit Sangra
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Melissa Roach 0:06
Youâre listening to Below the Radar, a knowledge mobilization project recorded out of 312 Main. This podcast is produced by SFUâs Vancity Office of Community Engagement.
Maria Cecilia Saba 0:17
Below the Radar brings forward ideas to encourage meaningful exchanges across communities.
Jamie-Leigh Gonzales 0:21
Each episode we interview guests on topics ranging from environmental and social justice, arts, culture, community building, and urban issues. This podcast is recorded on the unceded territories of the Musqueam, Squamish, and Tsleil-Waututh peoples.
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Maria Cecilia Saba 0:43
Hello, Iâm Maria Cecilia Saba, and youâre listening to Below the Radar. Our guest today is , the Vancouver-based filmmaker behind the powerful documentary, . The film follows three Indo-Canadian sisters from Williams Lake, BC, who experienced sexual abuse by an older relative in their childhood years. Through an empathetic lens, Baljit shows the sistersâ laughs and struggles, as they seek to break the cycle of abuse and redress the wrongs within their family. In this interview, we discussed the creative process that guided Baljitâs approach to a complex story in a way that highlights her heroinesâ humanity and the power of true sisterhood.
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Am Johal 1:27
Welcome to Below the Radar. My name is Am Johal and I am really delighted to be joined by Baljit Sangra and my colleague, Maria Cecilia Saba. Welcome, Baljit.
Baljit Sangra 1:39
Thank you.
Am Johal 1:40
First of all, congratulations on the incredible success thus far of âBecause We Are Girlsâ, your new documentary. Itâs certainly generated a lot of important and necessary conversations. Iâm just wondering if you can begin by talking about how you got started in documentary filmmaking prior to doing âBecause We Are Girlsâ.
Baljit Sangra 2:00
Oh okay, yeah. Well I studied film at UBC. After that, you know, you come out of film school and you think youâre gonna be a director, well it doesnât happen. Youâre a production assistant. So I kinda did a little bit of that for some years and then took a break and just worked in non-profit. Well, how I got back into it...I worked in London for a few months, and then there were a lot of really cool multicultural programming, but it wasnât sort of branded as multicultural, it just was, because thatâs what London is like. And Iâm like, why donât we have any of that in Vancouver? You know, weâre always just kinda pointing it, like âOh look, look how multicultural it isâ, and itâs not. Itâs just more of a reflection of who lives there.
Baljit Sangra 2:43
So I started an arts and entertainment show in Vancouver on CityTV called Viva, so it was really modelled after what I was seeing. And we did really good, we had a broadcast licence for a couple years and then I was sending my reruns to Channel M, which is now OMNI. And then theyâre like âCome over here, weâll give you an hour show, more money, more whatever.â And weâre like, oh wow, this is really catching on, because there was sort of a vacuum missing. Anyway, from there I wasnât really like âIâm going to be a documentary filmmaker,â but there was an issue that was happening in the news a lot about youths and involvement in gangs in the South Asian community, and I remember did a whole series. And it was pretty hard hitting, like every day seeing this in the front lines, and they did...I remember seeing just all these mugshots. Iâm like âWhat the heck is going on?â And it was really sensational, too.
Baljit Sangra 3:43
So yeah, thatâs how I started documentary filmmaking. I wanted to explore this subject, got some funding. It was a co-production with and it aired on Global and Knowledge Network, and I followed two kids in a high school in Surrey. So I got the permission from the school, it was a totally different, itâs not a sensational take on the issue at all. It has a lot of heart, âcause you just see what the kids are going through, you know. Sense of alienation, racism, neglect. You know, one kid was just looking for love somewhere, and he found that with the wrong people. You know, his parents were too busy. His parents had separated, his father was working night shifts and there were some problems there with the family. But, so some of those issues were highlighted by just following them and their stories, and also the level of violence. Like I would see him and then heâd have bruises, and Iâm like âWhat happened?â And heâs like âI was walking home and I got jumpedâ, because of something related to something, and itâs just like oh my god. âCause you have cell phones, right? You could just go âOh I just saw so and soâ and then people come. I was just like oh my god, youâre 14! So worried for him.
Baljit Sangra 4:49
Anyways, that got me into documentary filmmaking, and that film did really good. Itâs called , and they still use it in schools, the police were using, forums and...yeah, I still get royalty from NFB from it (laughs). So it did, I think it touched a nerve because Iâm from the community and I kinda shot it through that lens, like with more compassion. Because theyâre just 14, 15 year olds, right? And then things just escalate so fast because of social media and you know, it could just be hanging with gangsters and they ask you to do something...it just could go so fast, and itâs also that much harder to get out of it so⊠and thereâs a bit of a hopeful angle in that film, too, which is really good. And from there I did some more documentaries. I did one on end of life at , itâs an assisted living facility in Surrey, and it caters mostly to South Asians.
Baljit Sangra 5:42
So I kinda went in there, hoping to do⊠my working title was âGolden Girlsâ, like I was hoping it would be really fun like Golden Girls. Iâd find 4 cool Indian ladies whoâd meet, you know, coming from all different backgrounds, like socio-economic class, maybe different parts of the Indian diaspora, but they become friends at this place and it would be fun and thatâs be a really cool way to tell different histories, because theyâre in one place, right? Well it didnât really work out like that (laughs). There wasnât a lot of action happening there, like people were pretty like...not so mobile. I did capture some of the...they celebrated all holidays and religious things and there was a real bond amongst the residents there, so I was able to capture that.
Baljit Sangra 6:28
And a resident died while I was filming...and it was just really cool to see, you know, how they address each other like brother or sister, and the women that worked there, like the residents would call them son or daughter, so that created a really cool vibe, like a family vibe, so the residents donât feel so isolated. âCause itâs really hard, itâs a bit of a taboo subject to have your seniors being put in care, right? So they create this environment, and when people come and see it, theyâre like wow. Thereâs like a waiting list now. When it started, they couldnât even get enough people to get it going because of the stigma.
Baljit Sangra 7:03
Anyways, long story short, when I was making this film, my own mother dies in a car accident. Yeah, she got hit by a car as she was walking the dog, and so I couldnât finish this film because every time I looked at the footage I was just so depressed. And Iâm like, Iâd rather do anything on the planet than edit this movie! So somebody said, âWell why donât you put your story in the film?â Like Iâm doing this film, this happened to me, and Iâm actually a thread in the film, and I was able to put my mother in the film. Itâs just one thread, but that was how I was able to make the movie and I think thatâs what made it more impactful.
Maria Cecilia Saba 7:42
Yeah, for sure, and Iâm sure that also helped you with the process.
Baljit Sangra 7:46
Definitely. And I think, too, as a filmmaker you sometimes have to risk something. Like, you canât be so distant. That was really hard for me, âcause, you know, you have that sort of distance a bit sometimes when youâre doing an observational doc, or filming something. But, sometimes when you really put so much of yourself in something, it does make a difference. Not only if itâs your own story, it can be your heart, how you see things⊠Then, I did another film on hockey, but that was all really happy, good, about immigrants and hockey, and I found these two kids who are really, like⊠have their eye on the NHL. And their really good; one was on the , and then he went to another team, and now heâs in the American league. And heâs from working class background, and his parents⊠Theyâre an immigrant family, first generation. He gets invited to NHL camps, where they look for upcoming talent, so itâs pretty incredible. And then the other kid --now heâs a young man, but when I did it, he was just graduating high school--, heâs playing junior hockey in Sweden. So thatâs pretty cool! Those are celebratory films and shows all the sacrifices to make it, and how your family supports you... I was just surprised at how much Indian kids are doing so well in hockey. Going to the Surrey rink itâs like 80% Indian kids. And theyâre really good. So, I was not like, âCan I find two characters?â, I was like, âOh, my god! Thereâs too many people, how do I pick two?â And then, weâre here, with .
Maria Cecilia Saba 9:25
I wanted to ask you, how did you meet the Pooni sisters?
Baljit Sangra 9:31
Well, Jeeti is a friend of mine, we go back quite a while. I met her when I had that TV show I mentioned, Viva, and she was designing clothes. She had a store in Surrey and she was actually designing, like dresses for people, whatever they wanted sheâd make it. She was in Vancouver Fashion Week, and I did a story on her and we just stayed in touch. And then, I had her on the show again, she was doing something else, and she was like one of those people that you know youâre gonna stay friends with. And maybe because I was doing something a little outside of the box and so was she, so it was just a natural friendship. And then we would just get together for lunches and stay in touch, and through that connection⊠Oh, actually, Warrior Boyz, she came to that, and we met for lunch, and she said, âHave you ever considered doing a film about sexual abuse in the South Asian community?â, and I was, like, âWhat? (laughs) No, I have never considered that; how would the access be, how would I tell that story?â, and then we started having this conversation and she told me that she and her sisters were victims of sexual abuse.
Am Johal 10:41
So, I just watched the film for the first time a couple of weeks ago; itâs a really kind of jarring, emotional, beautiful film. And I think the added dimension for me, as someone who grew up in Williams Lake, in the South Asian community, and knowing the Pooni family as well. The younger brother, Jesse, he and I worked at McDonalds together and played golf together. Jeeti graduated from high school at the same time as my brother, and my cousinâs done some work as well with Jeeti⊠So, not knowing the background to the film⊠Had I not known the people the film it would have also been a kind of jarring emotional experience, but that added dimension to it⊠As a filmmaker, I think you have a really soft touch in aesthetically pulling these things together, and Iâm wondering how you thought about how to tell the story because it is so complex and intense, and how to put it to a documentary form that speaks to the broader public.
Baljit Sangra 11:46
Because I relate so much to the sistersâŠ. We come from the same cultural background, and weâve been friends, so just having that trust straight up, right from the beginning, almost. And that creates a real vulnerability; theyâll disclose and share a lot, so I had a lot of access. So, it really weighed on me. I had a lot of trust and, also, the film took like three years, or more. So, I visited the family, told them what my intention was with this film: to kind of start this conversation, that this happens in so many families so weâre not singling out this family, but we also need to know the backstory and context, and how all of that is really important. And, you know, the parents were on board with that. I mean, I just feel that I put so much of myself in the film; like, if I was to do a film of my own family, or my own sisters, it would be like this film. Does that make sense? Yeah, I didnât want to stereotype at all. I thought it needed to be slow, and it had to be hopeful, and there had to be moments where you would laugh and you could feel the connection of the family. And that sort of leads up to the climax, which is quite traumatic.
Baljit Sangra 12:54
And the court thread always added some tension along the whole film. Like, we could have done the film without the court thread, but that kind of gave it some momentum because even if the parents didnât want to be involved, or whatever, because of the court thread, the police had to⊠When they started the investigation, they did speak to the parents. And the father was called as a witness, you know, as a Crown witness. So, they had no choice. And that way to be involved, is not like, âYou girls are doing that thing, we have nothing to do with itâ; you canât be like that. This is a criminal case, right? Youâre witnesses of the Crown. So, in a way, their family had to be involved.
Am Johal 13:35
What were some of the struggles that came up in the process of shooting the film? Because, of course, thereâs like these externalities that are functioning on the telling of the story, but what are some of the challenges that you faced as a filmmaker trying to pull these threads together?
Baljit Sangra 13:51
Well, I think that when we started⊠NFB has their own kind of structures, a full-on NFB production. So, they do, like, an investigate-- a development shoot. And thatâs when I got involved in the development part. And then, the next year⊠After development we shot like a little taster, I did some filming and the head office--all of them thought âok, this is a good film, should be considered for productionâ, but the funding didnât come the next year, so I kept following the story on my own. Itâs like, I canât say to my friends, âWell, thereâs no money, see you when we get the moneyâ (laughs). This life keeps moving forward, right? So, I think in the end it payed off because it gave me that access.
Baljit Sangra 14:34
So I went there myself, with them to Williams Lake, just by myself, you know? In a small plane, when they were doing their testimonies, and stayed in the same hotel with them. Having all of that, I think, really enhanced the movie later, but that was a challenge, too, you know? Because this was happening, but the funding didnât come through that year. And, also, I captured a lot when they were ready to go to trial and there were so many delays, and adjournments. The defendant⊠âcause thatâs the last thing he wanted, right? The police had done their testimonies, all the other witnesses, but the most damaging would be from the victims, right? So thatâs what he didnât want, he kept delaying that.
Baljit Sangra 15:18
So, it was like we were trying to shoot or Iâm going over there to kind of film some of that, of them getting ready or how theyâre feeling. And they would re-read their statements, only to be told that itâs been adjourned because heâs sick, or heâs going to the hospital, heâs fired his lawyer, heâs got a new lawyer, he canât afford his lawyer⊠a whole year went by with adjournments, where they were ready to testify and it didnât happen. So, I kind of followed some of that. I knew emotions were really running high, and being a friend and a filmmaker, I think also, just by myself, getting some of their feedback, it was almost like therapy in a way, too. I didnât put a lot of that in the film but I think they needed an outlet; they were just feeling so frustrated. And they wanted accountability and be heard, and they were just feeling silence from the justice system. So being there just by myself, in that one year, recording, I think it was --I donât know-- useful, in a way.
Maria Cecilia Saba 16:22
Yeah. I wanted to ask you about that as well, because the film, for me, it felt like it had a lot of moments that were both, kind of, very heartwarming and very heartbreaking at the same time. So, I wanted to ask you how did it feel for you to be witnessing those moments with them so close. Thereâs that climax in the end that seems like a very, very intimate family moment and weâre there with you, right? So, how did it felt, how did you make the choice to be so close, as well.
Baljit Sangra 17:01
So, yeah, thereâs a scene in the film, near the end, that starts out as a family tea... And the conversation sort of starts out with one of the sisters saying that they didnât feel supported by the parents --because they kept on going to Williams Lake back and forth--, and then it sort of escalates (the conversation). I was able to be sort of a fly on the wall in that scene. It just sort of happened, organically --it was really lucky. Itâs just a cameraman --one cameraman and me. We just were rolling and we didnât stop, and it just happened. And, I think, when it got really emotional, I was literally crying behind the camera. It was hard. Because you want almost to stop and hug them, right? But we were just⊠we had to keep rolling and see what happens. Because that really, really showed the impact on them, theyâre able to confront their parents. Yeah, itâs a very powerful scene.
Maria Cecilia Saba 18:01
Yeah, but itâs a powerful film throughout. Like, a lot of those moments, with the three of them together, are veryâŠ
Baljit Sangra 18:06
Well, theyâre very light-hearted too. Like, going through court and re-reading your statements would take them back to the childhood trauma, which was really hard. But, there were other moments I was able to be with them, where they were really fun. Like, you saw that, theyâre really quick to sing and dance (laughs). I drove out once with them to Williams Lake and they sang, like, songs the whole way there, and would be like, âNo, my turn, my turnâ (laughs), and Iâd be like, âCould we just be quiet for a second so I can just film for a minute?â (laughs). You know, it was cute. So they have a lot of that. They would share a hotel room and just share these funny stories, or support each other, or get each other ready. Like, if it was one personâs turn, the other two would just make sure that person didnât have to think about anything but just get to court. Theyâd take care of everything. So, they have this real camaraderie. So, those types of emotions I thought were really important for the film because itâs true; thatâs how they⊠Kira says it so eloquently; some of their childhood was really traumatic, but they always had each other, and thatâs what got them through. So I thought that was a really important through line to put in the film as well.
Am Johal 19:23
Yeah, and I think in some ways thereâs that specificity inside of the conversations between the family, and I think they are so hard-hitting because they could be inside any family, and particularly inside an immigrant family, or Punjabi community. But thereâs this sort of, of course, a through line of being inside this patriarchal culture and the challenges between second generation and others, and the way these things get transmitted and how we negotiate them now. And, I thought this was really beautifully captured in the film. And, Iâm wondering how you approached that kind of complex, intimate side of things, where itâs sort of the personal, familial happening, and youâre there with the camera, and youâre at some point making editing decisions of whatâs in the film and whatâs not, and how you kind of approached that working with the subjects of the film.
Baljit Sangra 20:22
Well, I think the essence of filmmaking, or documentary filmmaking, is a search for truth, right? So youâre just trying to get to the real heart of the matter. So, thatâs really what was any kind of motivation. We started the whole process very slow, like, just hanging with the family, a day trip⊠The father just sharing his whole immigrant story; coming to Canada, and how he found jobs, and some funny stories, like, there was like snow and he got this job, and he had dress shoes on, and it was freezing cold in Williams Lake, and heâs sliding and working at a gas station of something. Just those type of stories, and driving across Canada to get work⊠I started way back, with their own personal histories, even the momâs whole story. I wasnât able to incorporate all of it, but we did get some of it. And their relationship, I thought, was very important to show, you know, the mom and dad. The mom says she had a good life and they have a good relationship, you know, they love each other, so I thought that was really important. So, just having some time to build that natural relationship, like you would with any friendship⊠and me and Jeeti do go back and I have spent time with Kira, so I think itâs just a lot of trust that allowed for their vulnerability, that gave me the access. And it was sort of slow and simmering. Like, I think, sometimes you have films where they just have like a little short thing in them, like âok, letâs get to the meat of itâ. Like, itâs all about the trial, letâs confront the parents, or⊠That just wasnât my kind of film at all. I think context was super important, for everything. Living in that small town, their schooling, childhood, Bollywood⊠just layers. I thought all of it was important to telling the story.
Maria Cecilia Saba 22:11
I wanted to ask you about Bollywood, as well. In the film, you intertwine a bit of scenes from Bollywood films, and I wanted to know what led you to this creative decision of showing the representation of women in the Bollywood films that the sisters would watch as kids.
Baljit Sangra 22:35
Yeah, well, when I asked them all, early on in the filming process, âWhat was your favourite childhood memory?â, and, you know, it was all separate, even to the parents, âWhat are your favourite memories at Williams Lakeâ... it was the cinema, for all of them, hands down. So, you know, it was sort of the only time they were able to spend as a family; the father was working really hard, he was at the mill, the mom was working in the kitchen at a hotel, you know, the girls are going through their own stuff at school⊠So, the family would all gather and go to the cinema on the weekend to see a Bollywood movie, which offered so much fantasy, dance, all that for the kids, and they would re-enact that at home. And the father had a real fondness for the movies, and music. He sings a little bit in the movie, but he had a record collection, so they grew up listening to the soundtracks of the movies they saw, so they knew, like, all the songs, and they would know the dialogues. So, thatâs really a bit part of their childhood, so it had to be put in the movie.
Baljit Sangra 23:39
Later⊠So, I think depending what age they were watching the movie, they would take some of that, and later it would also inform the romantic notions. You know, when the older sister talks about when she got married at, like, 18, that her father is gonna find her a movie star, like a Bollywood film. And that didnât work out that way. So, it kind of informed their notions of romance and also it informed the role of women. Because whenever, you know⊠It was really clear what a good girl was supposed to be, so pure, so dutiful, religious⊠so if there was any kind of a shame, or something⊠It often didnât end well for the heroine, even though she would beg forgiveness, or say, âthis is a misunderstandingâ. And, sometimes, the heroines would kill themselves. So, I think, seeing that as young girls, that kind of helped them reinforce the need to be silent about what was going on at home. That this could be their fate, too.
Am Johal 24:44
Yeah, itâs interesting how cinema reinforces a type of culture and, at the same time, in Williams Lake, in rural British Columbia, in the seventies, this theatre at the time was... Actually, , whoâs an artist in town here, her stepfather used to run the theatre, so on Sundays they would play Bollywood films. I remember going there as a young kid to see an film, and then in the mid-eighties, when the sort of came into being the circulation of video tapes to see Bollywood films, so it came inside the house. And, in a place where the preservation of culture is so complicated, in rural Canada, all these kinds of things, where there is intense racism, it had that kind of dimension too, and at the same time it reinforced these aspects. Iâm wondering⊠the film has generated such interesting conversation, be it in Toronto, here in Vancouver --I know youâre going to be probably travelling to other places--, from your perspective, how has the reception been and what are the kind of conversations youâre hearing back, as a filmmaker. I know many filmmakers are like, âI never want to sit inside and watch my own filmâ (laughs)
Baljit Sangra 26:01
We --myself and the three sisters-- were at , thatâs where it premiered, May 1st, and we sat in the audience and so, you just want to know how the audience is going to react to it. They were laughing, they were engaged, it was like⊠beyond my expectations, to be honest. And we came down after the screening for a Q&A, all of us, and we got a standing ovation in Toronto, the first screening. And then the second screening same thing. And then we came here for the opening night. 700 people, and then when I was seeing people passing through, I saw it was multigenerational, like grandmas with their daughters, and their daughters, and I couldnât believe it. A lot of young boys, men⊠it was just so incredible. I was like, âWowâ. And the, the opening night screening⊠I donât know, it just seemed that everybody got so into the movie. People really laughing, they got all the nuances, they were really reacting loud to the film. It was beyond, I couldnât believe it. And we also had a lot of... South Asians came out, too, on opening night. They got more of the nuances; it is subtitled, but they got another layer (laughs). So that was good. Itâs just been incredible.
Baljit Sangra 27:18
And then we ended up⊠We got two shows planned for and because of the really great response we sold out two shows, and they added two more and got sold out. At each show we got a standing ovation. I mean, a big part of it was that the sisters were there, so you could feel that the audience wanted to transmit this love, and empathy, and compassion. The whole atmosphere after the screenings was just like so much love, it was really incredible. I felt like we all got kind of lifted up. Yeah, it was good. (laughs) I donât know what more to say! The bar is too high now! (laughs) It was beyond our expectations; the media was super supportive too. I think maybe itâs kind of cathartic too; people want to have -- audiences want to have that kind of emotional release or the shared empathy or compassion. I saw guys crying⊠it was pretty incredible.
Maria Cecilia Saba 28:19
I think the film speaks a lot to people from a lot of different cultures, and across genders and everything, right? I was wondering if you were planning⊠In the same way that your previous documentary was screened at schools, are you planning of following a similar distribution pattern?
Baljit Sangra 28:45
Yeah, the lucky thing is that the producers are the National Film Board, so they have so many departments --they have Sales, Distribution, they have the educational market--, so they have a strategy planned. Theyâre a big player in the educational market, and they go to those big forums where you meet programmers and they can buy a whole capsule of educational programming, like for universities and stuff like that, so Iâm sure itâll be part of that. Right now weâve just started, so we just want to get it out. But, even after Hot Docs, I was getting emails from, âIâm a programmer from Portugalâ, and Iâd be like, âWhat?â (laughs), âIâm from this countryâ, and I would just send them to Marketing. They just started hearing good press, and seeing the screener, so itâs pretty exciting. Even at DOXA people came up from other ethnicities, obviously, and they just said it resonated so strongly with them, or something that they had gone through, or been hurting from generations and generations. And, a friend, a woman --Iâm so proud, in awe of her--, she came out at seventy-something about being abused and went to the press, and she came to our screening and felt so proud to share her story, and supporting us. So itâs pretty special whatâs happening.
Am Johal 30:16
I want to say thank you so much for joining us on Below The Radar, and thank you for the wonderful work that you do.
Baljit Sangra 30:23
Thank you.
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Maria Cecilia Saba 30:29
Thank you Baljit for joining us on the show and for creating this amazing documentary. If you havenât seen the film yet, is hosting a screening of Because We Are Girls on Thursday, June 6 [2019] at SFU Woodwardâs. You can find more information and tickets at sfuwoodwards.ca. Thanks to the team that produces the show, including Melissa Roach and Jamie-Leigh Gonzales. Big thanks to Davis Steel for the theme music and thanks to all the listeners.
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